London 07/July/05

[Wedge]

I should probably point out that it is usually Islamic extremists, who choose to interpret the Koran in a radical and incorrect way, that have been the cause of these problems. In fact I believe there are specific passages in the text that condone the use of terror tactics, but I have not actually read the Koran myself so I can't say for sure.

As for Africa and other under-developed nations, if the USA and other Western nations wish to stomp out terrorism this is where they should start. Only in a government that is corrupt and unstable can a terrorist organization find shelter. By it's very nature a stable country is the enemy of organized terrorism, because such a country would no longer offer resources and shelter to a group that could bring war down upon them. Even Afghanistan, for an example, would probably still be ruled by the Taliban if it were not for the alleged fact that terrorist cells trained and staged operations from within it's boarders.

Malcontents and radicals make good allies for terrorist organizations and as such the stable nations of the world are a direct threat to them. So these attacks are aimed at destabilizing those nations, and making things easier for them to perform operations. For an example you need only look at the aftermath of the Madrid and the World Trade Center attacks. Those two events radically changed their respective governments, and served to cause malcontent by their citizens over their responses.

The only real solution is to improve the stability of all the nations on this planet. For without a susceptible host body an infection will not find root. If everyone is happy, then there is no need to harm your fellow man. Certainly some religious and territorial rifts will last for some time to come, but the road to a lasting world peace must be taken one step at a time.

Of course I think the only real way to achieve true lasting peace would be to knock down all the boarders that exist between us, but that would require giving up religion, bigotry, racism, and national boundries, and that could take some time.

[Vortagh]

It's always "religious" extremists. Look at the christian extremists in North Ireland, they exist, too. It's just that the average christian extremists is a lazy slob, sitting in his compfy first world house, so he's usually not fond of going out and bomb - while most of the "third world" extremists have nothing left in life. AFAIK, they usually "recruit" from people who just had horrible things happening to them. I don't even want to know how many new recruits they get, each time Israel retaliates at civilian homes.

*sigh*

The world stinks nowadays.

[Wedge]

I know how you feel. unfortunately the people of this world are so hopelessly caught up in the barriers they have erected between themselves I wonder if there will ever be a time when everyone will work together,

[LC La Forge]

Something will happen one day to bring it about. It probably won't be good, and it will probably have a terrible effect, but something will happen to knock sense into all those who need it.

[Vortagh]

Problem is - how long will it last?

Look at World War II. There's no way in hell 90% of the people who lived in Europe or Asia during those times, would have started another war. Not with their horrible experiences what war really is.
Now "our generation" doesn't give a damn anymore and when I see troops in Afghanistan or Iraq (or whereever) saying how "cool" war is, I want to vomit.

[Wedge]

You have to consider the fact that there is a lot more violence in all the cultures of the world now. It's not just the stuff on TV, it's the movies and games and even neighborhood violence that are part of the reason people are becoming numb to it. Nowadays a lot of people actually look back on times like World War II and wish they were there to join the big "party" they think ithat war was. I admit I also look back on those times with nostalgia, but I'm nostalgic about the good things like the low crime rate or that a war so brutal could bring so many nations together. Or the fact that I could visit a national monument without having to worry about some religious extremist or deranged nutjob trying to blow me up.

During World War II many young men joined up out of patriotism and honor, not realizing the horrors they might face. Nowadays they join because it's just like a video game for them, but unfortunately there is one fatal difference, of course. Sorry Private Smith, no reset button here. You're in the real world now, or at least you were. Game Over.

[Wedge]

Still and all you do have to have respect for those who choose to serve, unlike this moron:

http://www.filecabi.net/host/file/MichaelCrook/wmv

[Vortagh]

I agree with what you said, allthough I still see a major difference between the US and Europe. People in the US *never* had *any* idea what war means (with the exception of those who served). It was always patriotism and heroes, without any ideas about the horror.

On the contrary, our children here are basically force-fed about the war in the education system, although we Germans are overdoing it. People are simply fed up with it being brought up on every single occasion - hell, we even heard a speech on it on a graduation ceremony. That we didn't have to talk about it in math and physics classes, is still confusing me. German, english, religion, music, art, sociology, politics, geography - you name it, we talked about it in that class.

But even though, nobody here in Europe would consider the SS to be an "elite, superior fighting force" or "cool". Contrary to many US citizens I talked to (usually in the 15 to 25 year range) and even a few former GE members. (Who then had the fun of having Syrt and me smacking them with Golf clubs :P)

And btw, the link is bad. :P

[Fel]

I've declined to speak on the issue for a while. Time to pause and reflect, take it in perspective, is important. After 9/11 I was as "Kill them all" as anyone, but that's a dangerous attitude to have.

The truth is that terror can and does happen all over, and there's no way of stopping it from happening. The best thing that people can do is be ready: Make sure the national infrastructure cannot be easily disrupted, make sure that people are on the lookout for extremely suspicious behaviour. The solution does not lie in throwing everyone into the gulag, as some governments have moved towards.

Syrtaras makes an extremely good point. Recently I read something by Naomi Klein called "The Brutal Calculus of Suffering". She had been at the newspaper and they had stopped the presses before the printing was done for the morning to change the headline to "3 Killed in Midwest Tornado". Midwestern US, that is. Some time later she wanted to stop it to report the killing of somewhere around 100 Afghani citizens, but the publishers refused. The article went on to suppose that 1 American = 2 West Europeans = 10 Yugoslavs = 50 Arabs = 100 Africans (I am pulling it from memory, apoligies for mistakes). And the thing is that it's true... there is so much more coverage for the people in the West than those in less fortunate places.

Mitchell makes the point of evil that one feels if he feels honoured and justified in killing innocents. The truth is that they believe themselves to be soldiers, fighting for what they believe in. It's a powerful image in America, isn't it? The average guy from a small town who goes and fights the enemy and is hailed a hero for it? This isn't that dissimilar.

Wedge again makes a good point about the development of countries, as I've been reading. Osama bin Laden comes into poor countries with his Saudi millions, and he funds the roads, the schools, clean water. Is it any wonder then that the people there view him as a saviour? Terrorism will always exist, but it is much harder to find people on your side when you don't have everyone hhailing you as a saviour.

Knocking down the borders isn't necessarily the solution. Some people will always be religion A and others religion B. But what needs to come down is how much it matters. "You're an A? Cool; I'm a B. Tell me some more about A? I don't know as much as I'd like to." is even better than a homogeneous humanity. At present it's "In the name of B, kill all the As!" or "You're an A? I have to save you by converting you to B right away!".

Vort makes the Palestinian-Israeli conflict point as well. I agree, but add that suicide bombings are probably a motivation for Israelis to join the army to get in on the whole retaliation gag. This is the perfect example of the circle of hate. Each act leads to a retaliation, and each retaliation to another act, and so on. Neither side is doing much for peace. But as I've discussed with people before, I happen to think neither side really wants peace. The UN could show up and start trying to hammer things out. But as some 1990s examples will show you - Rwanda, Srebrenica - international invention can be just a false sense of hope for the victims.

People in the west don't understand that war is a horrible thing. People like my father, over 50, has lived in the west his whole life and never been threatened by the spectre of war, or even going to war. We sit here in the west on our big couches and watch our big TVs that talk about how your dry cleaning could make you sick as we eat a super size pizza and chips and complain about how we've passed 250 lbs, ignoring our doctor's advice to cut back on the junk food and just maybe - maybe - try going outside. Sometimes I'm actually kind of disappointed that Canada does not haved mandatory military service, even for a year, just for everyone to learn some basic self-defence and self-discipline. It's incredible, the number of people here who can't shut up for ten minutes.

Actually, for years and years, the rate of violent crime, at least in Canada, has been going down. However, news coverage of it has been going way way up, so people get the impression that things are so much worse and scarier than it used to be. And in Toronto, the vast *vast* majority of violent crimes are committed by "gang" members against other "gang" members. It's not like you're in serious danger just walking down the street. Even in some shady areas. Just be careful and keep your eyes open (and your iPod out of sight. ).

Nazism is strangely glorified here, in a kind of badass way. It's almost the way drinking and smoking are. People sometimes believe in them because it makes them look/feel/talk badass and adult-like. Here, however, you can and will be prosecuted for Nazism or similar -- a Native leader was just convicted this past week for pro-Nazi statements. Fascism is strangely appealing for people age 15-16. I think it has to do with them always being certain of their perfect correctness and anger at and intolerance for disagreement of any sort. Fortunately, the smarter ones grow out of it. Eventually.

There's a problem with guilt, actually. It's appropriate for people to feel guilty about what they've done. Trying to impose it on the descendents of those who did it is more difficult. And even if you do, you must avoid overdoing it, otherwise there is an angry rejection of the externally imposed guilt, and an embracing of the very things they are "supposed" to feel guilty about.

Extremism is often the cause of just about everything. If people could play nicely with one another and respect differences, the difference would be incredible. But that's just dreaming on my part.

Well, I'm toasted for now. Back to work, Fel!

[Vortagh]

Fascism is strangely appealing for people age 15-16.

It always has been. That is because people in that age are open for anything, you just need to give them the right push. Hence they need to be kept away from stuff like religious and political influence, in my opinion. Few of them are ready to decide what they would like (and think about it beforehand). Most copy their parents - or oppose them by 180°.

[RES Mitchell]

I must be weird, because while I am a religious person (Roman Catholic, if you care), I do not ascribe to any real set of political beliefs, and I'm 17. I can honestly say that when it comes to politics, I have no core beliefs. Am I ahead of the game, or just apathetic?

[LC La Forge]

Or perhaps more mature. It is rather childish, after all, to think you actually believe something, when, in fact, you know nothing about what you believe.

[Jagged Fel]

No political views whatsoever is leaning towards apathetic, but since you can't vote anyway, it's not crucial.

And Fel brought up a good point about religion A and religion B and how they're usually trying to convert or kill one another. That's being fanatic, and I usually bundle that with "stupid people" There's no way to prove you've got the perfect religion since it relies on faith, so people need to accept that just because we don't call God "Allah" they need to blow stuff up.

[LC La Forge]

Regarding religous fanaticism:

What if Islam is simply going through a "phase" right now? You will recall that some early Christains went on the crusades to get back the Holy Land, etc. I'm certainly not condoning anything, but it is a possible reason for why some Muslims are feeling like they must be violent.

*shrug* Just a thought.

[Vortagh]

The difference is that only a tiny fraction of islam believers is a bunch of crazy wackos, while back "then", when we had the crusades, pretty much everybody believed that the crusades were the right thing to do - because people were told that was the right thing by the clergy (correct word?).

Nowadays, the average Muhamed over there doesn't give a damn about the fact that I do not call god by his "correct" name, but people like the Taliban and the wacko religious leaders would probably like to see me burning on the next pyre.