its me...Suave

[LC La Forge]

Bah, I served under Captain Calder for my entire career, basically. I know what it is to disagree with him.

But yes, you're right, it was fought from 1812-1814. I still stand by my point that it did nothing and was the most pointless war between Britain and the US.

[RES Mitchell]

I'm sure the good Captain would know where the Treaty of Ghent was signed...DOH!!

[LC La Forge]

Could it be... Ghent?

[Calder]

I beg to differ, Commander. It showed the world that the American Revolution was not an anomaly and that we were indeed capable of defeating the British Army.

In the modern era, only one nation has forced a British army in the field to surrender - and we did it at Saratoga, Yorktown, and New Orleans. Napoleon wasn't able to do that, nor was Hitler.

That aside, the 1812 War was rather anticlimactic. I might also point out that our major victory at New Orleans under Maj. General Jackson occurred after the war was already over, but word had not reached the local forces yet.

[Fel]

Historical note: The White House was originally painted white to cover up the smoke and fire damage caused when British/Canadian forces set it aflame in the war of 1812.

No other country has ever done *that*.

[Calder]

Yes, it was an unfortunatate fact that both Washington D.C. and Baltimore, MD were sacked by British forces.

Ironically, however, it was the remote and isolated city of Eastport, Maine (the easternmost city in the US) that was the only city permanently occupied during the war. It (and half the state of Maine) almost went to Canada when the war was negotiated to a close.

[Vortagh]

I beg to differ, Commander. It showed the world that the American Revolution was not an anomaly and that we were indeed capable of defeating the British Army.

True. The actual revolution would have been lost, would it not have been for the french helping you guys out. A fact that most US Americans tend to forget nowadays.

In the modern era, only one nation has forced a British army in the field to surrender - and we did it at Saratoga, Yorktown, and New Orleans. Napoleon wasn't able to do that, nor was Hitler.

Actually, that's bull. Just looks at India, Afghanistan and Africa.

Ironically, however, it was the remote and isolated city of Eastport, Maine (the easternmost city in the US) that was the only city permanently occupied during the war. It (and half the state of Maine) almost went to Canada when the war was negotiated to a close.

From what I understand, nobody in the US would mind nowadays. :P
"Erch, Maine.", "Maine's boring." - one might think they'd talk about the Landfill State New Jersey. :P

[RES Mitchell]

The War of 1812 could be called an anticlimactic climax to the Revolution. It was the first real test of the new America's strength as a potential world power (a position we would not be able to fill until the late 19th century, when we ran out of continent to divide and conquer, leaving the rest of the world to civilize and tame).

As far as Afghanistan and India go, those were colonies that finally bacame too unwieldy for Britain to maintain when they finally gained independence. Calder may have meant that the US was the only already-independent nation to defeat Britain in the field. At any rate, Britain did not have its heart in the final battles for Afghanistan and India, since their entire empire was crumbling and they couldn't stop that if they tried.

A word on Afghanistan, which may have a bad omen, or at least stack the odds against a victory over there in the War on Terror: Every world power that has ever invaded Afghan land has been forced to retreat from it in defeat, most notably Britain and the Soviet Union, back when America thought that Osama bin Laden was a freedom fighter rather than a horrible, evil terrorist. Consequently, Afghanistan has often been referred to as the "Graveyard of Empires". I hope for all people's sakes that we don't muck things up over there, but history certainly doesn't sit well with us having any success there...

[Jacob Jansen]

Historical note: The White House was originally painted white to cover up the smoke and fire damage caused when British/Canadian forces set it aflame in the war of 1812.

No other country has ever done *that*.

The reason why I have a dislike for Canadians and Brits...

[Jacob Jansen]

True. The actual revolution would have been lost, would it not have been for the french helping you guys out. A fact that most US Americans tend to forget nowadays.

I wonder why...

[LC La Forge]

Historical note: The White House was originally painted white to cover up the smoke and fire damage caused when British/Canadian forces set it aflame in the war of 1812.

No other country has ever done *that*.

The reason why I have a dislike for Canadians and Brits...

Burn Ottawa! *grabs the pitchforks, torches, and an angry mob of DC citizens*

As for the usefulness of the War of 1812, while you are correct in stating that it showed the new America's will to exist, if you examine the concrete causes of the war (British occupation of western lands, impressment of sailors, etc), you will see that, in fact, the war solved very little.

[RES Mitchell]

If nothing else, the War of 1812 was the prototype for many of America's future wars which were supported by the American public for few real reasons other than pride. We proved our ability to fend off the Brits in 1812, and within thirty years had started our doctrines of Manifest Destiny (expansionism), which eventually led to our tendencies towards imperialism in the name of democracy (or at least the best democracy that money will allow).

The Spanish-American War is actually very much like the War of 1812; driven by xenophobia and nationalism, fought on shaky pretences, and in the end, resolved very little. The same could be said for World War I, the second most avoidable war in human history (the most avoidable being World War II...don't believe me? Challenge it!).

[LC La Forge]

World War I could have very easily been avoided if the Archduke had been riding in a closed vehicle. Moron.

While I'm not challenging, go on WWII. You've sparked my interest.

[RES Mitchell]

If the Treaty of Versailles is never signed, or redrafted to lessen reparations against Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, Adolf Hitler is discharged from the German army and returns to the streets of Munich and becomes a struggling artist, unknown to history, dying of starvation without a deutschmark to his name by the 1930s.

The European Depression (and perhaps the American one as well) never occurs, meaning German citizens become far less likely to embrace radical ideas like national socialism and other economic policies that are the last resorts of those in states of relative deprivation. Not even Fascism can prop up ideologies if citizens are economically able to leave wll enough alone. This means Mussolini(sic) cannot grab power as effectively as he did in Italy, and the Nazi Party remains as just one of hundreds of political parties clogging up German politics, eventually dying out in the early 1920s because of a lack of talking points and effective leadership, a casualty of recovery and future prosperity in Germany.

Germany would have recovered its national pride anyway, but under a different man and standard than Adolf Hitler and the empty promises of national socialism. The Holocaust was not a result of WWI, but rather a nationalistic selling point in an already anti-Semitic continent. It is possible that whoever would have filled Hitler's place in history might have tried the same trick with the German people. But I do know that the Marshall Plan was about thirty years too late for Europe, because the Treaty of Versailles laid the groundwork for Hitler's rise to power, a rise to power that could have been avoided if the Allied Powers were not so shortsighted in their own nationalism and pride and tried to achieve a lasting peace in Europe, something that they failed to work for at Versailles. Their failures resulted in 50 million more pointless deaths and set Europe into a permanent state of economic stagnation. You'd think after the 10 million who died for nothing in WWI, the Allies would have learned their lesson. What we've got here, is failure to communicate....

[Calder]

While yes, it was good for the US that the French gave us a great amount of aid during our revolution, it could also be argued that it was just another case of the French getting involved in something that was none of their business, if we assume that it was an internal issue within the British Empire.

I imagine we would take a much different view of the French (and the British) had they done the same thing in the early 1860's and recognized the Confederate States of America as a legitimate government (which they nearly did).

Edit:
Having just read Mitchell's post about WWI, I'l throw something even simpler out there: The US shouldn't have gotten involved in WWI. That would have solved your problem right there. Europe was bled dry by 1917 and there would have been a negotiated peace. Versailles would never have even occurred and the national boundaries would have been relatively unchanged. There would have been a return to the status quo, and if there's something everyone can live with, it's the status quo.