A Case for the Reorganization of the Imperial Navy

Post by **Vortagh** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:28 am

And to make something clear, that I feel needs clarification: This isn't about making the Navy bigger. It's about making the Navy make more sense, from our current gaming and membership/game perspective. If TIE would be out now and EAW out in 98, the navy wouldn't have squadrons and now we'd be talking about making the Navy into what we currently have.

But sure, the bigger size might act as a morale booster for people. There's always been people who wanted to play and people who wanted to achieve command. And with this, they actually could.
So if it makes sense to change the Navy layout, and it might at the same time get morale up a bit, why NOT do it?

LCL Fewrfreyut · Post by **LCL Fewrfreyut** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:42 am

Vort: you said simulator squadrons are nearly dead, but we could maybe solve that temporarily.

Alot of people have scoffed at the idea of cross-chain platforms, but, like everyon'es saying: desperate times call for desperate measures.

Star Wars: Battlefront II.

It has starfighters you control and pilot against other ais or people. We could potentially use it as a simulator to give a more recent flight sim to the squadrons.

Like I said, maybe only a temporary aid, but still might be better than nothing.

Post by **Fel** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:25 am

We're looking at it...

LC La Forge · Post by **LC La Forge** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:41 am

LT Fewrfreyut wrote:Vort: you said simulator squadrons are nearly dead, but we could maybe solve that temporarily.

Alot of people have scoffed at the idea of cross-chain platforms, but, like everyon'es saying: desperate times call for desperate measures.

Star Wars: Battlefront II.

It has starfighters you control and pilot against other ais or people. We could potentially use it as a simulator to give a more recent flight sim to the squadrons.

Like I said, maybe only a temporary aid, but still might be better than nothing.

We had considered the SW mod for BF2142 for this very purpose... I don't think we heard anything back though. I couldn't get it to run, not sure about Antillies.

Post by **LGN_Antillies** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:31 am

No luck here, either.

LCL Fewrfreyut · Post by **LCL Fewrfreyut** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:47 pm

this is an idea that just came to me. We probably won't use it considering we need flight sims not another Navy RTS, but I'll put it out there nonetheless.

The game Sins of a Solar Empire. No, it's not an SW game, but there's mods out there that make it SW.

Like I said, it's not what we need right now. But it might open up fields for recruits who own Sins to consider the Empire. I don't know. I'm just brainstorming here. :P

Post by **Vortagh** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:59 pm

I mentioned the mod in our mod-thread, but sadly the mod doesn't really work. It apparently works only with certain versions of the game and even then it's not certain - which is too bad. I think a mod for THAT game, would have potential.

LCL Fewrfreyut · Post by **LCL Fewrfreyut** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:46 pm

it would indeed. Maybe after Lucas Arts finishes Star Wars: The Old Republic, they'll grace us with another flight sim.

LC La Forge · Post by **LC La Forge** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Vortagh wrote:And to make something clear, that I feel needs clarification: This isn't about making the Navy bigger. It's about making the Navy make more sense, from our current gaming and membership/game perspective. If TIE would be out now and EAW out in 98, the navy wouldn't have squadrons and now we'd be talking about making the Navy into what we currently have.

But sure, the bigger size might act as a morale booster for people. There's always been people who wanted to play and people who wanted to achieve command. And with this, they actually could.
So if it makes sense to change the Navy layout, and it might at the same time get morale up a bit, why NOT do it?

Some know that I've never been a fan of this model of organization. I felt in the past that it bloated the size of the Navy without making it any better off. I felt that it destroyed the camaraderie and esprit de corp that made people want to stay in a unit. I felt that it would ultimately be detrimental to the Navy as a whole.

But frankly, after reading what has been said and looking at it, it occurs to me that there is the possibility that those who have advocated Captain Calder's proposal may have something. Part of this change in feeling comes from the desire to try something new, to see what effect that can have on the Navy. Part of it comes from the fact that the Navy's membership is increasingly EaW and decreasingly (for a long time now) TIE/XvT/EaW. My official platform is, was, and will always be TIE Fighter. However, I can see the merit of going to a more EaW-centric organization: we increase the command ceiling, we allow more ships to open, we set higher goals than just ensign first class for new folks.

If we go about this, then the System Force becomes the Base Unit of the Navy, as far as I can see. Every new Ensign gets assigned to a FRG. This FRG is under the command of the system force flag officer. Those who hav earned it may move up to command VSDs such as the Striker. They would have the nominal rank of (say) Captain or Commander. Base unit for the Flag officer would still be CD to RA. Ensigns who do well can get promotions to EF with no change in unit. Same for SL and 2LT.

If we do this, my recommendation would be to drop the ranks of Wing Commander and 2LT... I think we don't need them and getting a new ship is more than enough in most people's mind.

ID Lines can stay in the same format. Instead of having squadrons, however, everyone will simply be SCS. It occurs to me that maybe new Ensigns could come on as first officers to current FRG captains for a short probationary period while they learn the ropes. Graduate them to EF and give them their own command after, say, two to four weeks.

The key here, people, is to maintain unit cohesion while we do this. The systems force NEEDS to become the new squadron. The people in the SysForce must get the sense that they are working towards a goal with others. Or we'll be just as doomed to fail with this as we are with the current setup (not saying the current setup is bad, but it needs to create unit cohesion or it will be).

I'm glad my initial thoughts are sparking conversation. Any comments to what I said?

LCL Fewrfreyut · Post by **LCL Fewrfreyut** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:40 pm

You're absolutely right, La Forge. We need to maintain unit cohesion if this reorganization idea takes effect. IF. As Calder said, it could cause some minor issues down the road, like if recruitment and membership does boom, then we may not have enough ships eventually.

But, in that case, the GE:ER's history is not set in stone. We could, perhaps, by means of another Outer Sectors campaign, "aquire" more Imperial ships, should the need arise. Using the idea of Rebels not destroying all Imperial shps they capture, but using them against the Empire, or that they send them to be decommissioned, where we could plan a raid and take them back.

For the army, I feel it would be simpler than for the Navy, as you can just create a new company and Brigade using nothing but paper and statements, instead of needing actual ships. After all, things like that have occured in all real life history. As forces grow in size, more divisions are made.

Which reminds me.

In modern militaries, the chain of unit classification goes, from, bottom to top, squad->platoon->company->battallion/regiment->brigade->division->army.

Should this take effect, I've no idea if it would fit the system or if it would throw the navy-army rank equivalences into disarray, I personally would think about adding a Division level command stage to the Army, because as far as I can see, all that follows brgade CO is a spot in army high com, where as what follows an ISD CO spot is system force CO.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm just brainstorming some ideas to see if I can give a good one that everyone thinks is a good idea.

Calder · Post by **Calder** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:07 pm

I spoke to General Burton a bit about how this would affect the Army, and that's still very much up in the air - as is this whole proposal. The two people who have the most say, the Admirals Fel, have yet to weigh in. I am sure they will discuss the merits of this proposal with the rest of the High Command. For the army, I personally advocated the discontinuation of enlisted ranks since it doesn't make much sense for a new naval recruit to be a commissioned officer (ensign) while a new army recruit is enlisted (private). For the army, I would advocate the following in ascending order:

Platoon - 2nd Lt to 1st Lt
Company - 1st Lt to Major
Regiment - Major to Colonel
Brigade - Colonel to Brigadier General
Corps - Major General to Lieutenant General
Army - Major General to General

Units of Regiments and above would have an executive officer.

I do not include the unit of "division" which would normally be between brigade and corps because of the use of the term "division" to distinguish between the branches of the Imperial military.

I also want to make sure that La Forge's comments were clear to everyone: in essence, current squadrons would become ships, and ships would become systems forces. Thus, the Navy would be as follows:

Squadron - Ensign to Lieutenant Commander
Ship - Lieutenant (starting on FRGs) to Line Captain (senior captains on SDs)
Systems Force - Commodore to Rear Admiral
Sector Group - Rear Admiral to Admiral
Navy - Rear Admiral to Admiral

Larger ships would have an executive officer. The Army would have six levels, the Navy only five, but the distinction would be in that ships would vary in size from Frigates up to ISDs.

LCL Fewrfreyut · Post by **LCL Fewrfreyut** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:25 pm

ah ok. That makes abit more sense now. I was still abit hazy as to the rank workings, as were a few others.

Post by **Vortagh** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:42 pm

I'm not sure if we should kill the army units. And also, I am absolutely against dropping any ranks. :P

"RP" wise, small ships is no problem, as we stated in the official background, that we are able to produce smaller ships, like Strike Cruisers. (and doing so)

Calder · Post by **Calder** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:49 pm

I'm not advocating eliminating ranks, except for the Army enlisted. However, that might be further than we wish to go at this point. Nonetheless, this problem is not limited to just the Navy. I daresay that the Army is in need of attention as well, which is why my proposal is for the entire GE, and not just the Navy.

I will draw up a proposed order of battle later today which might make things easier to grasp.

LC La Forge · Post by **LC La Forge** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:15 pm

Yay, documentation! :)

You know, we could try it with the Navy, see if it works, and put it into the Army if we like it...